Plastic Podcast Episode 4: The Truth About Biodegradable Plastics
Episode Description: In this episode of Plastic Podcast, host Clark Marchese delves into the complex world of biodegradable plastics. Joined by environmental biologist Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones, they explore the scientific and environmental nuances of bioplastics, debunking common myths and uncovering the truth behind greenwashing. They discuss the historical breakthroughs and the current surge in biodegradable plastic production, their real environmental impact, and how they aren’t so different from conventional plastics. The discussion extends to the social and economic implications, and the potential for international policy change through the upcoming United Nations Treaty on Plastic Pollution. This episode is a must-listen for anyone keen to understand the nuanced reality of biodegradable plastics and their role in our environmental future.
Episode Guest: Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Browse their publications on Research Gate
More information on alternative plastics and the UN Treaty
More information on Scientist’s Coalition for an Effective Plastics Treaty. Follow them on LinkedIn for policy briefs!
More information about the episode and the Plastic Podcast
Episode Transcript and more information on the Pine Forest Media Website
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Hosted, produced, written, and edited by Clark Marchese
Cover art and PFM logo by Laurel Wong.
Theme music by Tadeo Cabellos
Transcript:
[00:00:00.000] - Clark
Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Plastic Podcast, the show that tells the story of plastic, how we got here, where we are, and where we need to go. My name is Clark Marchese, your host, and this week we are serving science yet again. Can you believe? And the topic for today is biodegradable plastic. So, biodegradable plastics. I remember the very first time I used a biodegradable plastic. It was in 2018, and I remember that day very well. Not necessarily because of the plastic, but I was at a Rekorderlig Cider Festival. Rekorderlig, for those of you who might not know, is a Swedish Cider brand with a bunch of amazing flavors. They have apple, obviously, but they also have strawberry lime, wild berries, passion fruit, and some that they call botanicals, where they add herbs such as peach, basil, rhubarb, lemon, mint, raspberry, hibiscus, rose. I literally tried every flavor that they had available that day.
[00:01:17.900] - Clark
Anyways, the cup I was using had a special message on it, and I took a picture, so I do remember exactly what it says. It said, I am not a plastic cup. 100% compostable, 100% biodegradable. This tumbler is made from plant starch and can be turned into compost. Now, at the time, I was a student in Environmental Studies, and I thought, Oh, my God, we did it. The oceans, they're saved. I looked into it a bit after that, and I found that there were some companies that I started making plastic out of avocado pits, sugarcane, bamboo, corn. And when I first had the idea for this episode, I thought I was going to learn how to make a cup out of a corn. But when I started looking into it, it seems that there is a growing body of scientific research pointing out that these might not be the solution that we thought they would. And the direction for the episode took a little turn. Today, we are going to be talking about greenwashing. For anyone unfamiliar with the term, I phoned a friend, Mariam Webster, and it got an official definition, which is as follows.
[00:02:18.540] - Clark
Greenwashing, the act or practice of making a product, policy, activity, etc, appear to be more environmentally friendly or less environmentally damaging than it really is. And It seems that this is a major issue when it comes to biodegradable plastics. Now, I have a wonderful guest today to talk to us all about that. But before we start, we're going to have a couple of definitions and a little history lesson. Bioplastics and biodegradable plastics. Our guest will help us define them in more technical terms. But basically, a bioplastic is a plastic that was made out of something coming from nature, a naturally occurring source. As we learned in our episode on the history of plastic, some of the earliest plastics were made from cellulose, which comes from plants. So that would be a bioplastic. Now, this is in contrast to most conventional plastics which we know are made from fossil fuels, even though, yes, I know a fossil fuel is just a dinosaur and some leaves seriously smushed together. But this is the term we use to separate them. Biodegradable, on the other hand, basically just means it breaks down and decomposes. We will have a more technical definition later.
[00:03:22.320] - Clark
Now for the history lesson. One of the earliest forms of biodegradable plastic was made from milk, cacin, more specifically. In 1897, it was called gallolith. Now, the problem with gallolith was that it didn't retain its shape super well, and so it wasn't very functional. The next development we have comes from a French researcher named Maurice Lemoyne in 1926. He created the first biodegradable plastic made of bacteria, which was called Bacillus Magneterium. What he was trying to do with it, I'm not sure. The internet only tells me that his research was overlooked. At the time, the applications for a development like that were not so lucrative. They became lucrative in the 1970s. Why? This one I do know the answer to. It was because during the 1970s, oil oil crisis, when prices of oil skyrocketed, and as we know, most plastics are made from fossil fuels, fossil fuel companies were worried that access to oil would remain unstable and unpredictable. The industry started to invest in other potential sources. Additionally, in the the medical community was hopeful about biodegradable plastics as well. Say you break your leg and you need a screw or a plate to help your bone put itself back together, the medical community was hoping to come up with a product that would just dissolve once your body fixed itself.
[00:04:44.520] - Clark
So medical companies started to invest in these solutions as well. Finally, if we are following the money, we haven't talked about it a lot on the show yet, but plastic waste was gaining more and more attention from environmentalists starting in the 1990s. So the search for sustainable alternatives to conventional plastics also accelerated research into its development. And now we see them a lot more often. Biodegradable trash bags and cups all being presented as the environmentally conscious alternative. As it turns out, however, science is finding that the consequences of biodegradable plastics almost mirror the consequences we see with conventional plastics, and the benefits they have to offer us are both limited and only seen in very specific intentional contexts, at least at this stage. And that is the main topic of our show today. The scientists I found that explained this to me is named Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones. Winnie obtained a PhD looking into microplastics in the deep sea ecosystem and is currently working as a postdoc researcher in environmental biology at the International Research Unit for Marine Litter at the University of Plymouth, where she specifically looks into the consequences of biodegradable plastics on the environment.
[00:05:50.790] - Clark
Winnie explained to me what a biodegradable plastic is, the different ways they impact the environment, and their social and economic impacts, and how all of these compare to conventional plastics. We We also talked about the upcoming United Nations Treaty on Plastic Pollution, how biodegradable plastics should make their way into that document, and how you can stay up to date on the process of negotiations. I hope you have as much fun learning about this as I did, and let's get started.
[00:06:21.780] - Clark
All right. Welcome, Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones. I want to thank you so much for giving your time and coming on to the Plastic Podcast today. The first question would just be if you could introduce yourself for us.
[00:06:34.010] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, of course. I'm an environmental biologist and plastic pollution scientist, and currently my role is researching the fate and impacts of biodegradable plastics. I've been researching plastic pollution for about the last nine years or so in a number of different topics. My research broadly focuses on environmental fate and quantities of plastics and microplastics, how they move from land to sea, the effects of those to both marine and terrestrial organisms and ecosystems, and then ultimately, trying to develop science to inform solutions. Within biodegradable plastics, currently, I'm looking at the impacts of those on terrestrial ecosystems, plants and animals and soils as well.
[00:07:25.270] - Clark
Okay. I want to ask lots of questions about that. But before we get into it, I'm I was wondering, what made you interested in studying plastics in the first place and why did you ultimately decide to become a researcher?
[00:07:38.000] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
I guess my journey in some ways was traditional. I finished school, went to university to study zoology, went on then to do a master's degree in marine biology. But after that, I moved out to Belize in the Caribbean to work for an NGO. Our field camp was based on this small remote island with very few people in the surrounding. Yet, with every tide that came in, our plaster would also be washed onto our little beach. Of course, we'd collect this, but without waste management on the island, there was very little we could do to safely or adequately disposed of that. I spent a year working there and increasingly became curious about studying plastic and where all this litter was actually coming from. During my master's, I studied a module where we could write about any form of marine pollutant of our choosing. Primarily to be different from everyone else on my course, I actually chose plastic pollution because everyone else was choosing climate change or oil spills or things like that. When I started to dig in about plastics, I was surprised how many questions there were still left that had been unanswered. I think this is 2012's It was 2013.
[00:09:01.760] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, quite a while ago. I had that in the back of my mind. Then obviously seeing that plastic in the Caribbean. When I returned, I was motivated to study this and went on then to do a PhD studying plastic pollution, actually in the deep sea ecosystem, looking at current quantities that were there and also the historic occurrence of plastics in the deep sea.
[00:09:28.430] - Clark
Okay, that's really interesting. I think also as I'm doing this project and approaching this subject as a journalist, I'm also finding out how many questions that we still don't exactly have the answers to. But I think also I've talked to a handful of researchers who are studying plastics at this point It's actually a common story that through field work, they weren't expecting to encounter plastics or plastic wasn't exactly the focus of their field research in the beginning, and then they see it around them, and then it prompts a shift in focus. I think there's something really powerful about seeing it right in front of you.
[00:10:04.250] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:06.120] - Clark
Let's talk about some definitions. Waste is obviously a major problem when it comes to plastic because it doesn't break down or degrade like other organic materials do, and we see a host of consequences as a result of that. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but a biodegradable plastic is basically something that serves the same function as a regular plastic but does degrade like other organic materials. At least that's the way that they're presented to us as layperson and consumers. Is that correct?
[00:10:37.370] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, so a plastic is a synthetic polymer, so a really long chain of carbon. That carbon can either come from fossil-based sources like oil, non-renewable resources, or bio-based sources like animals, plants, bacteria, so a renewable source. So biodegradable biodegradable plastics can actually be made of either. Just because it's called a biodegradable plastic, it doesn't mean that it's come from a bio-based source of carbon. It could be made of fossil carbon, fossil resources, oil, or it could be from plant material, or it could actually be a mix of both.
[00:11:19.560] - Clark
Okay, I learned my first thing today. I did not know that biodegradable plastics could also be made of fossil fuels.
[00:11:25.720] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
But what's really key about it is that it is able to undergo this process of biodegradation. What that means is microbes are able to break that plastic down into its molecules, so into carbon dioxide, into minerals, into water. That's the really key component. But the rate that that happens is really dependent on the material, so the properties of that plastic, its chemical structure, the additives that are put into it, the chemicals that It can sometimes make it more resistant to degradation, and also the environment in which it used or where it ends up. The temperature and the PH, the types of microorganisms that are actually in that environment. Something that is biodegradable in soil may not also be biodegradable in marine water or fresh water or even buried deep within the soil. Maybe it just needs to be on the soil surface. It's quite a variable thing. Just saying biodegradable certainly doesn't mean that this plastic is universally degradable in all in conditions, all environments, and even under what time scale.
[00:12:42.670] - Clark
Okay, wow. In summary, not all biodegradable plastics are made from renewable resources, and not all biodegradable plastics degrade in the same way, at the same rate, or under the same circumstances. Now, a lot of the things that you just told us have implications for plastic waste, but I wanted Can we just start at the beginning of the chain of production and work our way forward from there. Is there a difference on the impact to the environment from the production of biodegradable plastics versus conventional plastics?
[00:13:11.840] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, so that's a good question. Yeah, In terms of the production of those, it's not necessarily synonymous that a biodegradable plastic means that it's environmentally friendly or sustainable or any of those buzzwords that are used. There's very testing of the environmental credentials of these materials to know whether they are actually better or worse. Of course, those plastics made from fossil-based sources are coming from a non-renewable, finite resource oil. We've only got so much of that, and it's also used for so many other purposes. But then when we think about bio-based materials, if we're using land to grow plants to then turn into plastic, is that the best use of water, of space, of land. There's also pressures from producing enough food to support the human population. Both have their challenges. Ultimately, the primary solution is just cut down the use of all plastic regardless of where it comes from. We've also got additives, chemicals being added into the polymer as it's being made, regardless of whether that carbon is bio-based or fossil-based. There's It's still a suite of chemicals. I think there's about 13,000 registered chemicals that are used in all plastics. So not just one single plastic product, but if we look at all of the types of plastic.
[00:14:43.030] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
So there's a huge amount of chemicals that go into the production of plastics.
[00:14:48.420] - Clark
Do we know what percentage of biodegradable plastics are made from each source, fossil versus bio-based?
[00:14:55.300] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Again, that's quite a complicated thing. One of the most widely used bio-based biodegradable plastics is called PLA that's used in a range of things, including tea bags, to-go food packaging, agricultural products, and that's derived from plant material. In 2022, nearly half a million metric tons were produced just at that polymer alone. But another very widely used biodegradable polymer is actually derived from fossil fuel resources. It's quite hard to get the information of the breakdown of what percentage is bio-based and what percentage is fossil-based, but certainly both are at least.
[00:15:45.640] - Clark
Okay, so I did a bit of looking into this, and Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones is right that it would be perhaps almost even impossible to know how much of each type is produced if we look at a metric such as metric tons, for example. But we can see how much money each industry is making. We have PLA, Polylactide, and we have PBAT, which is butyline adipate coteropthalate. Boom. Pla is the kind made of biomaterials, and PBAT is made from fossil fuels. Now, according to a market report by Brainy Insights, I found that PLA, the biomaterial kind, raked in $500 million in 2022. I also found found in Emergen Research Industry Report that P-bat, the fossil fuel kind, generated around 1.46 billion US dollars, so about three times as much. I also found that both types are projected to more than double their revenues in the next 10 years or so. So production of both is definitely increasing full steam ahead.
[00:16:49.950] - Clark
A lot of people think that biodegradable plastics are a magic solution for all of plastic pollution, and it sounds like that's not exactly the case. Do you have any ideas or thoughts about why it's presented this way? Do you think people just get so excited because we're hopeful and looking for solutions and we just ran away with it before we took the time to actually investigate it the way it needed to be investigated? Or is it maybe even something more sinister than that? What are your thoughts on why biodegradable plastics are seen as this magic solution?
[00:17:24.560] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, good question. It is very confusing, the terminology. You've got so many different labels on things, plant-based, bio-based, I'm not plastic, biodegradable. It's really hard for the consumer to know, and there's no standards around that. It's not necessarily the industry intentionally confusing the consumer, but if there were clear labeling standards and its terminology, I think it would definitely help us as the consumers to know what it is that we're buying and also how to dispose of it. There's some research that shows consumers use biodegradable options. Well, firstly, they're more likely to go for something termed plant-based biodegradable over a conventional plastic. Also, they're- Okay, we lost our internet for half a second during the interview, but she was explaining that people who use biodegradable plastics are less likely to worry where the trash ends up and even to litter. Because they think it will just biodegrade in the environment. Why are they being reused in their use? I think it is partly people just hoping for these solutions, but there is also a lack of testing of these materials. It does appear to me that it is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction without necessarily the appropriate testing in place to know whether or not they are better, what the effects on the environment are, what the effects on animals, what the effects on us are of being exposed to these plastics.
[00:19:06.980] - Clark
Okay, I want to start to talk about how they specifically are impacting the environment. But before we do, I have to ask, and perhaps the answer isn't clear, Can we confidently say that while we do need to ultimately reduce plastic use overall, for the time being, bioplastics or biodegradable plastics are a better option, or can we not confidently say that?
[00:19:29.860] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
I think in very specific applications, why degradables may offer advantages to conventional plastics, but that isn't for a lot of the purposes they're being used for now. So not for to-go food containers, not for these single-use plastics, I see, bottles, to-go food packaging, but for applications where they are used in the environment and they remain in the environment. Actually, agricultural practices, you see these films laying on the ground that crops grow through. At the end of the season, they're quite degraded and they are plowed back into the soil. There, a biodegradable plastic, if it actually biodegrades, does offer an advantage over a conventional plastic, which might be very hard to remove from the soil and might have fragmented into small pieces. In For particular applications, yes, there might be benefits as long as it actually biodegrades and doesn't release harmful chemicals. But for just substituting all plastics, no.
[00:20:42.700] - Clark
Okay. What strikes me about that example you gave us that you can oversee the entire process of where the plastic is going and exactly the environment that it's degrading in, which is not the case when we put something into our bin. We have no idea, really, most of the time. That That leads us into the way that biodegradable plastics affect the environment when they turn into just plastic waste out there in the world. How do they affect the environment compared to traditional plastics?
[00:21:15.990] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
They actually have quite similar effects. This number of studies on biodegradable plastics is much smaller, much lower than the number of studies looking at conventional plastics. It's only been in recent years that we've shifted some focus and started to study biodegradable plastics more. But in terms of the conventional plastics, we know that they do cause harm to organisms through the physical particles being in the digestive system of animals, through changes to the metabolism affecting their reproduction, altering the environment, so the physical characteristics of that environment. But We see similar effects for biodegradable plastics. I've just been conducting some work with earthworms, which are vital in terms of processing organic nutrients from the soil surface down into the deeper layers. Yeah, really, really vital within that ecosystem. Some of the biodegradable plastics that we've been exposing these worms to have altered their reproduction, meaning they produce less offspring over their life. We've also seen that it can disrupt their behavior, so the amount that they're borrowing.
[00:22:36.760] - Clark
We are going to do an episode just on plastics in the soil, so stick around for that if you want to learn more about earthworms. Also, yes, I would still love all of you listening if you were worms.
[00:22:48.760] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
But it can also alter the physical properties of the soil, so how much that soil is able to hold water. As the climate's changing, we're seeing more extreme weather. Certainly in the UK, in the last few years, we've had much more profound drought and then torrential downpours of rain. We've had drought and then we've had extreme flooding. If the soil is not able to hold as much water because of the use of these plastics, that affects the water dynamics. We're actually going to see more of a soil erosion and more flooding, more extreme flooding when we have these rainfall events. What might sound like a small impact of the plastic can alter the properties of the soil, can actually have quite profound ecosystem wide effects. But of course, we do need to keep on researching biodegradable plastics to fully understand what effect they have. But certainly the evidence that we've got so far indicates similar effects to conventional plastics. Of course, the chemicals that I mentioned at the beginning, we see these in the biodegradable plastics, too. There's work from other research groups across the world showing that the chemicals contained within biodegradable plastics can, in some cases, have greater effects than the chemicals leaching from conventional plastics.
[00:24:10.920] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
That might be because the biodegradables are designed to degrade quicker, and so release these chemicals faster. It might be because there's also more chemicals in them because we need the plastics to function for a defined period, and then we need them to biodegrade. You might have to add more chemicals in to make sure that that plastic can still have its function before it then deteriorates.
[00:24:38.800] - Clark
What about microplastics, which are increasingly being brought up in the news? Do these biodegradable Can you think that also degradable plastics also shed fragments and fibers into the environment the same way conventional plastics do?
[00:24:51.740] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
They can. There's another whole category of plastics called OXA-degradables. They've been banned through much of Europe because they are a polyethene, a conventional plastic with just an additive put into them that makes them fragment into microplastic and over a quicker time scale. When you look with your eyes, you don't see the plastic, but it's still there. It's just in a microscopic pool.
[00:25:19.610] - Clark
It seems that the key distinction here is that there's a difference between something that simply breaks down an actual nutrient recycling.
[00:25:26.270] - Clark
So when a banana breaks down in the environment, for example, as it everything that it was is being reused by the soil, by the microbes in the soil, by the bacteria, and they're taking its nutrients and turning it into something else that's useful. The environment doesn't really know what to do when it sees plastic. So these Oxodegradables have no benefits compared to traditional plastics just because they disappear from our site. They have been banned in a lot of places, which it's interesting how we can get around banning one but not the other. But in any case, the EU has banned these Oxodegradables in a 2019 directive. Incidentally, this decision was challenged through a lawsuit by a company called Symphony Environmental, and their tagline is Making Plastic Smarter. Now, I'm not too familiar with everything that this company produces, but we've got to be careful about company branding in cases of greenwashing like this. Now, science tells us, and ultimately so did the general court of the EU when they ruled against symphony environmental, that OXO-degradables are not making plastics smarter.
[00:26:32.370] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
These have been recognized to be very damaging, and as I said, banned in certain countries. But we're seeing an increase in their use in the global south. There's a misinformation surrounding what they will do. There's a mismarketing of these products as truly biodegradable when they're actually not. To answer your question, yes, they can fragment into microplastics.
[00:26:56.020] - Clark
That leads me into my next question. What are the social and economic What are your considerations to bear in mind when it comes to biodegradable plastics?
[00:27:04.240] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, absolutely. All types of plastics, biodegradable or not, it's such a multifaceted issue, and it does really require this entire life cycle approach. By that, I mean analyzing the production all the way from the extraction of that carbon source right through to the manufacturing and the transport, the use, and finally, the disposal of plastics. We need to adequately We have multiple sectors, scientists from all disciplines, policymakers, public sector, for example, coming together. We spoke briefly about the land use required to grow the crops to turn into plastic. But there's also environmental justice issues. A lot of these might be grown in global south, where there's a lot of monocropping or deforestation to provide the land resources to grow these. The The issue surrounding plastic isn't just an environmental issue, it's a human rights issue as well.
[00:28:06.010] - Clark
Okay, so it makes sense that if the environmental and scientific implications of traditional plastics and alternative plastics are almost the same, the social and economic issues will be the same as well. But what I'm also hearing is that it might even pose the potential for heightened harm if the true environmental impacts of these products are concealed through greenwashing and countries without regulation as effective as the EU go full steam ahead with these new methods, we'll say. What are we going to do about this? I want to switch a little bit to talk about the United Nations Treaty on Plastic Pollution, which I understand you are involved in some information campaigns and advocacy for. Can you tell us about this treaty? What is it?
[00:28:51.690] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
In 2021, 175 Nations Agreement on Plastic Pollution by the End of the Yeah, this is really a landmark once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to develop a high ambition treaty to end plastic pollution. There's an amazing group of scientists, the Scientists Coalition for an Effective Plastic Treaty, which is a network of over 300 scientists that give up their time. They're all independent, so we're unbiased. We just provide evidence, scientific robust Just evidence that hopefully will support the negotiations.
[00:29:35.200] - Clark
Okay, and you say they're going to reach an agreement this year in 2024?
[00:29:39.510] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
It's meant to come into effect at the end of this year. In reality, I'm not sure. We've still got a ways to go. There was a provisional text to start working against. Nations all submitted their revised changes to that, what they wanted the text to reflect. With 170 or so nations submitting text, it's now the job to go through that and try and see what the path will be.
[00:30:09.490] - Clark
Do biodegradable plastics find their way into this document at all? If they What do you do? Are we satisfied with their position? If they don't find their way into the document, what do you think absolutely needs to be addressed?
[00:30:25.550] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
They do. They do come into the text. They're not specifically named, but they do come in as this term, quote, unquote, plastic alternatives and substitutes. At the moment, everything's in brackets, which means that it hasn't been agreed on there, that all the text is as a suggested form. All of us scientists are watching this space and working very hard within the scientist coalition to try and make some recommendations for the path ahead in terms of the essential use of different plastics, the transparency of how they're used and how they're produced, to just name a few, as well as obviously making sure that there's safety criteria. There still needs to be regulation on the chemicals, making sure that the time scales in which they by a degrade and making sure that the labels are in place.
[00:31:18.320] - Clark
Is there any way that listeners or the average person who's curious can either follow along with how this process unfolds or get involved?
[00:31:28.520] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, absolutely. The Scientists Coalition for an Effective Plastic Treaty has a website, and we produce very short, maximum two-page summaries about a range of topics. They're very accessible to read. I co-authored one on biodegradable and bio-based plastics, these alternatives. There's a very short summary of frozen cons and where they might have applications listeners could read about. But there's a range of topics. The interaction with plastic Plastics and Human Rights, the interaction of plastics with climate change are all on there. There's a very good resource. To follow the actual treaty negotiations themselves, this is all through the UN. You can actually watch along and review the documents if you're so inclined to by going to the UN website. Some are quite dense, but there are summaries that are produced. Also, actually, the Scientists Coalition has a LinkedIn page where when those negotiations are taking place, we are posting daily summaries that you can read along with. The next one is in April, as I said. Through April, there'll be more activity following along with those negotiations.
[00:32:45.410] - Clark
Okay, guess what, guys? It is April now, so you can find a link in the episode description to all of the things that Dr. Wendy Corateen Jones just mentioned. Okay, we are going to start to wrap up the episode. And one of the questions I like to ask before we close out is, is there one piece of good news that has come out recently in your field that you can share with us?
[00:33:08.400] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
This is actually quite tricky to answer. I mean, good news. We have seen a lot of different bands of single-use plastic items all around the world. These are great, but they don't go far enough. It's like sticking a plaster on a broken leg and expecting it to heal. They're a good start, but we really need things to go further than just bands of specific items. But what I think is the good news is that the world is really sitting up and listening and aware of the wide scale impacts and prevalence of plastic in the environment. There is a public pressure. There's a science pressure. There's an industry pressure to action. Yeah, a call to action. I is looking at governments to make ambitious and effective decisions to actually create meaningful, positive change as we go forward.
[00:34:11.260] - Clark
I would say that counts as good news. I think that counts. I think this treaty that we've talked about presents the opportunity for good news in the coming year. I think we can go with this. The second question is, what is your favorite part of your job?
[00:34:30.000] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
I love working with students. I undertake a lot of research myself, but I also supervise research projects run by undergraduates and postgraduate students at the university. I really enjoy working with them, seeing their energy, seeing them progress. These are the next scientists, the next leaders. It's amazing seeing their journey and then seeing That's what they go on to as well, keeping in touch after their university journey has finished. I think my second favorite thing is contributing science that can be used to support policy decisions. The research that we're conducting does have implications for how these plastics are used and the decisions that we make.
[00:35:21.290] - Clark
I think both of those also count as good news.
[00:35:23.870] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah.
[00:35:25.940] - Clark
The last question is, is there anything that we did not discuss today that you think is important to mention when we talk about biodegradable plastics?
[00:35:33.470] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Ultimately, the best option is to stop consuming as many resources regardless of what plastic they are. This isn't specifically about biodegradable, but I would just like to flag this in the broader plastic context and discussion. Just want to extend a little bit of caution about products claiming that they might be made of ocean-bound plastic or that they've been stopped going into the environment by being turned into shoes or clothing or a bag, something like that. Ultimately, a lot of this is just a marketing strategy for us to buy more, as scientifically, there's no such thing as ocean-bound plastic.
[00:36:17.910] - Clark
I don't think I understand what that means.
[00:36:21.080] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah. Companies are starting to brand this that by making this product, they've intervened and stopped the plastic that was destined to go out into the ocean from actually going into the ocean. By creating this product, they're doing almost a public service. They're preventing pollution. That doesn't stack up. That's just not accurate scientifically. These just aren't the answer.
[00:36:50.280] - Clark
Got it. Thank you for explaining that to me. I hadn't heard about that, but I'm going to do some digging because that sounds suspicious.
[00:36:56.660] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:36:59.190] - Clark
All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I learned a lot, and we'll definitely keep following your work and the Plastic Treaty as it continues to be negotiated. Thank you so much.
[00:37:12.840] - Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones
Thank you. Thanks for the time. It was wonderful talking to you.
[00:37:23.400] - Clark
All right. That was Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones, everybody. I learned a lot from this conversation, although was not the conversation I was expecting to have when I wanted to learn more about biodegradable plastics. I wish I could tell you that we can, in fact, make a cup from a corn and all of our problems would be solved. But I don't think that this episode is a total bummer. I think that there is some things to be happy with. First of all, let's take a minute to appreciate the scientists like Dr. Winnie Courtene-Jones working on this. Part of the reason we are facing so many problems with plastics is because their true effects were not known until we had already adopted them into every part of our lives, basically. It is good that we're catching this relatively early on in the widespread application of these alternative plastics. I also think it's encouraging that we've already seen some bans on these products. We need more, but each one we get, we can point to as precedent. Lastly, I think we can find optimism in the upcoming UN Treaty. If we execute this correctly, I think it's a really rare opportunity to address some of the international and global consequences that come from regional legislation.
[00:38:27.870] - Clark
All right, I will leave it there today, but please come again next week to learn more about our plastic planet. Thank you for listening to Plastic Podcast. You can find more information about this week's guest and links to their work in the episode description. Join us back here next week, where we will be talking to an art historian from Greece named Johannes Soumis, all about the history of our artistic relationship with plastic. The cover art for the show was done by Laurel Wong, and the music you're listening to was done by Tadeo Cebellos. I am your host, Clark Marchese, and this episode was produced, written, and engineered by me. If you loved it, I will not only see here next week, but I would really appreciate a five-star rating and review. The Classic Podcast is part of a larger network of sciencey podcasts called Pineforest Media. You can find more information about them in the episode description as well, or at pineforestpods. Com. We've got some exciting science podcasts coming out this year, and that review I was talking about really helps the entire network to grow. All right, thank you so much to all of you who have made it this far, and we'll talk soon.
