Plastic Podcast Episode 22: Digital Tech and the Circular Economy of Plastic across African Contexts

In this episode of Plastic Podcast, we explore how digital technologies are driving Africa’s circular plastic economy. Host Clark Marchese is joined by Dr. Seun Kolade and Wunmi Ogunde, who discuss how mobile apps and blockchain are connecting households with recyclers, empowering communities, and reimagining the plastic value chain. They also highlight the key role women play in these systems and the challenges faced by waste pickers across the continent. This episode sheds light on the innovative approaches Africa is taking to address plastic waste and how digital solutions are fostering both environmental and economic progress.

Episode Guests:  Dr. Seun Kolade and Wunmi Ogunde

Find out more about Dr. Seun Kolade at the University of Sheffield and on LinkedIn

Virtually attend the POLCON conference here 

Find out more about Wunmi Ogunde on LinkedIn

Read Dr. Kolade and Wunmi Ogunde’s article here

Learn more about PAKAM in Nigeria

Learn more about WeCyclers in Nigeria

Learn more about Yo-Waste in Uganda

More information about the episode and the Plastic Podcast

Episode Transcript  and more information on the Pine Forest Media Website

Follow Pine Forest Media on Instagram @pineforestmedia

Hosted, produced, and edited by Clark Marchese 

Cover art and PFM logo by Laurel Wong. 

Theme music by Tadeo Cabellos 

Transcript:

[00:00:10.300] - Clark

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Plastic Podcast, the show that tells the science and the story of our relationship with plastic. I am your host, Clark Marchese, and today we are talking about digital technologies, circular plastic economy, and countries throughout the African continent. Before we get started, I just want to say thank you to everyone who has been listening to the show for a as well. If you've been enjoying it, the best and easiest thing you can do to support the show and help us reach more people is to leave a one-tap five-star review wherever you're listening to this now. I would also like to take a second to welcome any newcomers wherever you might be in world. Like you, listeners, Plastic is also all over the world, as are many of the topics we cover on the show. Today, we are doing another regional case study, and this time we are going to the African continent. One thing that I hope has been made clear throughout this series is that problems and solutions of sustainability exist in the context of all in which they live and that which came before them. I've made this joke before, but it is true.

[00:01:25.290] - Clark

We have talked a lot about Europe and also Southeast Asia, but I wanted to keep getting curious about what's going on with plastics in even more places. I came across an article published by our two guests for today titled, Digitally Enabled Business Models for a Circular Plastic Economy in Africa. Two of the authors agreed to talk to me today about this article and the research that went into it. We have Dr. Seun Kolade, who is a professor of entrepreneurship and digital transformation at the Sheffield University, and his colleague, Wunmi Ogunde, who is a PhD candidate at the same university and has an extensive experience in the private Director of Plastic Waste as the COO of Pacom, a waste management software company operating within Nigeria. The two of them have been working on a large-scale research project and have written a number of articles trying to understand how digital innovations can tackle the problem of plastic waste, reimagined the plastic value chain, empower local communities, and contribute to gender equity in multiple countries throughout the African continent, and we are going to learn about the research and what they're finding right now, actually. I guess let's just go ahead and get started.

[00:02:29.920] - Clark

All right, we are recording. Thank you both so much for taking the time to be here and come on the show. Before we dive into your work, I guess I'll have both of you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about your research.

[00:02:55.340] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Well, yes. Thank you, Clark, for inviting me. My name is Seun Kolade. I'm a professor of entrepreneurship and digital transformation at Sheffield Business School, where I also lead the digital transformation research group. I've worked on circular plastic economy for the past 5, 6 years now. We colleagues, of course, such as Wunmi, but also our colleague, who is not here today. We led one of the biggest projects that we were involved with on circular plastic economy transition.

[00:03:30.200] - Clark

Okay, well, I'm very happy to have you here. Thank you for coming on the show.

[00:03:33.930] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Thank you.

[00:03:34.830] - Wunmi Ogunde

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, so just a brief introduction myself. So again, my name is Wunmi Ogunde. I am currently a PhD student at the University of Warrick. I've done a lot of work in plastic, with the work within the plastic industry in Nigeria. I have over 15 plus years professional experience within that sector. And obviously now doing my PhD and working with the likes of Professor Seun and Professor Munoa as well. Then, of course, a few others in that sector to obviously showcase what Africa is doing within that sector and talking more about it.

[00:04:11.540] - Clark

One question I sometimes like to ask is because I'm curious how people got started with the subject of plastic. So where did this research journey begin for you?

[00:04:21.930] - Wunmi Ogunde

I think for me, it's when I actually, first of all, attended the University of Warwick, my research was actually focused on plastic, and that was initially where the interest came from. And then moving back to Nigeria and just seeing the enormous amount of plastic that we had, blocking all the drainages. So it was obviously a major problem, and the world was gradually looking at, Okay, what is going on in Africa? What is going on in Nigeria? Just at that moment, we happened to be in that space. And so that took over the interest for me personally. And going by the knowledge that we still needed to build, going by just about 5% of plastic being recycled and all of the world going around the global problem just around plastic. So it was enough to be in plastic. It was enough to say, Look, plastic is an issue. We want to be there. How can we change people's ideas, orientation about plastic?

[00:05:17.020] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Very well said, Wunmi. Hard to doubt. I think plastic was always a big global problem. It has been for quite a while. But on the African continent, which is the big, nice frontier of growth, it can become an even bigger problem, not just for the continent, but for the world. You have a growing population, growing economy. I think it's just also the recognition that as much as it's a moment of EU challenge, it's also a moment of big opportunity to change the trajectory, to change the conversation, new pathway of production, and a new habit of consumption as well. I think for me, that's a big incentive to step into this space because it's a timely opportunity to shape the direction in terms of production in terms of policy in terms of habits of consumption of the continent, yes.

[00:06:11.440] - Clark

Yeah, okay. I think you hinted at this in your last response, but I want to ask the question anyways, which is something that we try and impress on the show is how sustainability and issues of the environment need to be looked at in context. We've done a number of episodes on the show that are case studies from different places around the We've done some in Southeast Asia, some in Europe, some in the United States. We know that all these places have varying levels of consumption habits and infrastructure, different government structures and policies in place. The case study that we're going to be talking about today is the one that you worked on that analyzed a number of different countries from different regions across the African continent. But before we get into it, I just want to ask if there's anything we need to keep in mind about the countries that we're analyzing today that you think will enhance the listeners' understanding of what it is we're going to be talking about who might not be familiar with this particular context?

[00:07:06.540] - Dr. Seun Kolade

I think the one thing that is often the case in conversations about the African continent is that a lot of people, a lot of policymakers and commentators seem to see the continent as a monolith. It is not. It is not. You have about 50 something countries on the continent. In the same way, you have a wide spectrum in terms of experiences, in terms of policy intervention, in terms of success. I think that is important, really, to understand the originality of the continent in terms of experience it with plastic in terms of relative success. That is one of the things we're supposed to grapple with actually the project. Why it is focused on Africa? We engage with stakeholders in more than 14 countries to really understand the nuances of experiences of these different stakeholders, especially the innovators who are stepping into the space in spite of policy restrictions. That's important to bear in mind because we found, for example, in countries like Rwanda, they have different experiences of success in terms of policy intervention. But Rwanda is a different context, culturally, politically, from a country like Kenya or for that matter, Uganda. I think that's one of the illuminating things actually we found in the story, that the There are good practices that can be shared across the continent, across the countries, but also there are differences, and we don't seek to mask those differences as we try to facilitate this change of good ideas that can be implemented, that can be applied in context.

[00:08:48.850] - Wunmi Ogunde

I think well said. I think maybe just what I would add to that is, obviously, within all the different context, similarities, and also our differences as nations within Africa. However, one thing that is important is also to realize that we're at that early stage of industrialisation, so to speak, where technology is coming in and all of that. The interesting thing about Africa is we're quickly absorbing all of these things. At the moment, the world is happening rapidly, so all of this new technology is being quickly absorbed. So it's one of those things that has presented us with a very unique opportunity to actually use that industrialisation, use that technology to come in saying that, irrespective of where we're coming from, what is happening, we are quickly adapting to things. So all of that is something that we definitely need to put in context of what we're doing as well.

[00:09:40.550] - Clark

Got it. So I understand some of your research is meant to track that rapid introduction of technologies that we're seeing, and that's also what we're trying to get an understanding of today. I want to ask you about, obviously, on Plastic Podcast, how we're seeing these technologies relate to plastic. I came across an article that you both published titled Digitally Enabled Business Models for a Circular Plastic Economy in Africa. Can we get a bit of an understanding of what the motivation was behind this project and maybe some of the main research questions attached to it?

[00:10:11.540] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Yeah. That's a very quick question, Clark. We've actually published many of the papers in this project, as you see. But I think there is a common understanding at Prowseport, that the circular plastic economy is a good idea, is a good concept, not only on the African continent, but across the world, Because we cannot just continue to produce this single-use plastic that are immenes to the environment, to aquatic life, to whatever metric you use. But also there is also the economic logic there. The idea that circular plastic economy is a good idea is not new. It's been with us for quite a while. We've known that for quite a while. Why is it so that the linear economy has persisted, has continued to be the dominant mode of production over these many decades since we know that single-use plastic are no good? I think there is that economic logic. They are cheap to produce, and there's a lot of profit there in terms of the manufacturers producing these. We wanted to engage with that because as far as we are concerned, in order to drive the circular plastic economy, we cannot just appeal only to heart and mind.

[00:11:33.140] - Dr. Seun Kolade

The argument has won enough heart and mind. It needs to win their pocket also, if you like. I think we made the argument that in order for this to gain traction, we need to look at the idea of the circular plastic as a good business as well. Not just a good idea, but also a good business. That is what the research was focused on, to see how then can digital, because we live in the age of digital transformation, how can digital technology drive these new business models that makes it a compelling economic logic as well. In a nutshell, that is the variety motivation to explore that because we judge that on the African continent, That economic imperative will be quite critical in moving this case forward.

[00:12:23.180] - Wunmi Ogunde

I think just to add to that, I think Professor Claudia said everything. Just to add to that, I think one of the things that also And within the literature we've also seen is that we do not have enough literature context out there that has to talk about Africa in a sense. And there's a lot of work going on. There's a lot of research, there's a lot of businesses, there's a lot of case studies that we can always draw from. But the question that we keep getting is we don't know where to go. We don't know who to speak to, all of that. So I think the work that we're trying to do here is actually bring that conversation to the forefront. And I think that's also part of the motivation for wanting to go into this research and exploring as many countries as we can and bringing this to people saying, This is happening, this is happening. Understanding that it's not just about setting policy, it's also about seeing where the business is and understanding how that business is transforming lives, how digital technology is helping to improve and accelerate all of these things at a go.

[00:13:19.500] - Clark

Okay, I'm really excited to dig into what it is that you found. I'll preface this by saying I'm not necessarily someone who's very familiar with digital technologies, nor and am I an economist, but we're going to do our best. Simply put, what did you find from this research? How are digital technologies enhancing the circular economy of plastic, and who are the actors in this space?

[00:13:43.390] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Well, I mean, so the actors, many of them are a agglomeration of small-scale enterprises like Wunmi Ogunde's, for example, who is here, who are engaging with the grassroots, who are speaking to households. The power of digital technology then begins because the fundamental argument is about the market. How do you mobilize the market? How do you create demand? How do you also connect suppliers together? There are households who have plastic waste that they want to dispose of. They don't know what to do with it. It's in a simple way. It's about how can you, for example, connect these millions of households to those who want to use this plastic to make new stuff one way or the other. And I think that is where actually the argument about the use of digital technologies begins, because it's about a simple but really powerful opportunities there. Mobile apps, for example, to connect hundreds of thousands of households to say, Okay, these are the collectors near you who want a plastic waste, for example. It is beginning from that, the power of digital technologies to mobilize the market, because the logistics of the market can It can be very complicated otherwise.

[00:15:01.850] - Dr. Seun Kolade

You have many of these households, for poor households, remote places. But if you are able to digitally connect them, then the logistics of collection, of supply, of remanufacture, and all of that becomes ever more simplified. That can be really powerful. That's what we began to find out with some of the organizations. Maybe we can mention some of them later on. But there are organizations like UO West in Uganda. There are organizations like WeCyclers in Nigeria who are already using these.

[00:15:33.960] - Clark

Okay, maybe just to quickly check my understanding, what I'm imagining is some a platform or a website where people or households can either say, I have plastic waste, Does anyone have a use for it? Or other people can say, I have a need that could be filled with plastic waste. Does anyone have plastic for me? Is that how these are operating?

[00:15:53.930] - Dr. Seun Kolade

That is it in a nutshell, in a simple way of expressing it. But it's bigger than that because then also the co-option or the introduction of tokens to incentivize collection. If you have this collecting, if you bring so, so, so, so plastic waste, you can tokenize it. There's also really the economic incentive there that has been in facilitation It's facilitated. There's the introduction of blockchains into the picture. There is other things as well in the production hand in terms of 3D printing, those who are using it to make stuff. It's both the software aspect of digital technologies but also some of the hardware dimension of it as well. But in a simple form, it's being able to bring people together. Like you said, okay, I have this, but more than that actually down the line as this develops.

[00:16:43.850] - Clark

Okay, a quick aside, because blockchain might be a new word for some of us, as it was for me. I pasted that last paragraph of Dr. Kolade speaking from the transcript into ChatGPT, and I asked it to write a small aside that defines what a blockchain means for anyone who is unfamiliar with the term. And here's what it says. Just to quickly explain, a blockchain is a super secure digital ledger that anyone can see. Imagine it as a big notebook that records every transaction like trading cards or tokens. And once something is written in it, it cannot be changed. That makes it really trustworthy, which is why it is used for digital technologies to track things like plastic waste or tokens in this case. We're going to learn a little bit more about tokens later, but basically, that's what a blockchain is, and these technologies essentially are creating a digital marketplace for repurposing plastic. Okay, so then I also heard you speaking about households. I heard the term grassroots. I'm wondering if either of you have any comments on the community aspect of how these systems work. Also, Wemnie, would you like to share a bit about your organization and the work that you're doing there?

[00:17:49.280] - Wunmi Ogunde

Yeah, definitely. We do a lot of work with grassroots, households, communities. I think that's actually a lot of where the work… When I started to work within the I'll quickly mention about my company. I think what Professor Colado was describing in terms of basically connecting waste generators to waste collectors, that's how we term them. That's what my company does as PACAM. The local term, it just means collect, right? We just ensure that if you are looking to dispose of your waste to get value for it, you just find the nearest collector who is a recycler near you, and they will come and pick up from you and then pay you for that waste. Very simple. Obviously, they are all little entry cases which was talked about the logistics and all of that. But the idea of that digital technology connecting them is actually to ensure that if there's a collection's location just two blocks away from you, you can find them and they can come just very simply. The way we've also done that, going into grassroots and household, is decentralizing that. But what we've been able to do with the application is also with the geo-fencing places whereby if I'm a collector in a certain area, you can find me within this area.

[00:19:02.020] - Wunmi Ogunde

So it doesn't take you... We're trying to make it fun and convenient, right? And that's what has been enticing more people. That's what gets me to want to recycle my waste, store it, keep it, and get something for it at the end of the day. We even have people that eventually donate that to charity. But we've done a lot of work, even training women within communities to actually empower them to also be business owners within their locality. We've paid them through... Even Lennie, there was a project we did, I think it was with Coca-Cola a while back, and it was actually to train about 30 women who were within a local community. What we did was we took them on as a company. We paid them while they were in a three-month training, learned all the different plastic material, learned what this is, who would take this, and all of that. And what that did for them was they then went on into their little different corners to actually start collecting and bringing it to a larger aggregator who can sell it off, pay them. And just creating that value It's a mobile app, which I know Professor Schola already mentioned a few others.

[00:20:05.180] - Wunmi Ogunde

So these are some of the things that are coming up within Africa that people are actually welcoming. It's so welcoming because it's like every single person has a mobile phone, Probably two mobile phones if you go to Africa, because most times we have to carry two phones and not just one. So you always have a mobile phone, probably data on your phone, and you just, Okay, I want to recycle for fun. And at the comfort of your home, at the comfort of your business, you are able to call a collector who will come and pick up from you. And that just makes it fun. Of course, there's still a lot to do in terms of awareness. There's a lot to do in terms of education. However, the whole concept of secular economy, the whole concept of even just having a clean environment is beginning to resonate more now, and people are beginning to see value, especially that valueization that was talked about, the tokenization that was mentioned, that is a major, major incentive.

[00:21:01.280] - Clark

Okay, this is all super fascinating and also encouraging because I think this might be the first time that I've heard that the economic benefit from a circular economy would be decentralized and actually go to the households, because In every other context, I guess, that I've had this discussion, and we want there to be some recycling or waste collection and sorting, but we want to assign that responsibility to a large institution or some central actor, like a government that has lots of resources. But I'm really glad to hear that this economic benefit is actually going to people because in the system, we need people to buy into it. The system also costs them time and effort. Not only will this economic incentive perhaps increase the success and efficiency of the system, But I also think it might even be considered by all means necessary and fair compensation. You mentioned that your organization engages in some programs that train women, which is also a recurring topic I've seen throughout your research. I saw a quote actually that says, I'm going to quote you now, Women play a key role and should be the focal point of this solution.

[00:22:05.450] - Clark

Can you explain what that key role is and also how we can move forward in a way that centers women's role in this issue?

[00:22:13.220] - Wunmi Ogunde

Thank you so much. I think they're definitely a good introduction into that question. I think taking it a little bit back into just Africa in general, and obviously, I grew up in Nigeria. When it comes to house when it comes to households, when it comes to anything that has to do with the kitchen and all of those things in general are generally women. So there's always that foundation of... And that has also gone up until now, whereby even within when it comes to plastic and all of those things, first of all, is women that they see the value. Oh, I could make money out of this. This has always been women thinking about it and not just even out of even making money. A lot of times, you know, because Coladine mentioned at the beginning of the conversation that we have actually started circular economy long before it even started being a concept. I'll give you an example. I remember when I was growing up, you would see people buy their Coca-Cola bottles, and they trade that back in to get the new ones and all of So this was a practice that we knew.

[00:23:17.780] - Wunmi Ogunde

And the people that were always pushing it that would have shops, that would have stores were women. So that has been almost like the generational thing. And going by anyone that would do any training for any young person or talk to them about how to keep the environment clean, how to make it ensure that this is a clean and safe space, mostly women. Going back to some of the work that I've done in Nigeria, a lot of those that engage with us constantly, they're women because they want to know, How can I make an alternative source of income? How can I keep this place clean? How can I do this? How can I do that? So there was always that path. And when we paired put men and women together, it was women that were always the challenge. They were always the pushers. Obviously, it's not to say that the men are not doing their part, but obviously, women are the focal point where they are the pushers in this space, especially when it comes to the environment. However, obviously, there's also the part where we can argue that sometimes within the value chain, women do operate in the lower value chain as opposed to the higher value chain.

[00:24:20.920] - Wunmi Ogunde

But you then still have a lot more women in terms of numbers within that space. And we're also seeing that number grow as well now because they are the ones that know everything that is happening on the foundation, when you get to the middle as well. So that is beginning to change gradually. So women do have a lot to play in ensuring a clean, safe, and healthy environment.

[00:24:41.980] - Clark

Okay, thank you for sharing that with us. Also for your work in that space. I want to ask a couple of questions about challenges, and this is twofold. I'm wondering what challenges exist on the ground in terms of implementing some of these systems, and then also what challenges people like you, as researchers face in this field.

[00:25:03.510] - Dr. Seun Kolade

To pick up on what we're seeing about the role of women. I think one of the challenges for women also is mobility because you have a lot of roles, especially in the rural, rural communities, women are more confined to the home a lot because of what they do in the homestead. That can limit economic opportunities as well. But I think that is also where the role of digital technologies come in as a game changer. Because with digital technologies, what it means is that you don't need to do a lot of physical movement from place to place. This actually upends this historic disadvantage because it means they can then put their creative geniuses to work. There are challenges, but those challenges are also frontiers of opportunities for digitally-enabled business models. Some of these technologies are also, because we talk about technologies Sometimes we think they are high-end stuff, and that could also be a challenge. But like I always say as a researcher in this space, digital technologies tend to solve the problem that user technologies create. In the first place. If only you can creatively use it in that way, in that direction. We have one of the examples is the use of blockchain technology.

[00:26:25.170] - Dr. Seun Kolade

I don't know what are you about the Manku blockchain. This was spied by a guy from Democratic Republic of Congo. It's been traction now in places like South Africa, where about 60,000, as of the last time I wrote the book chapter on this, about 60,000 West speakers have been integrated digitally, have been given economic feasibility digitally, and they don't have to use smartphones. Some of these are very simple phones as well. They can create tokens, they can create records of their transaction, the thing that they can actually take to the bank. Some of these are also there, you know. Cashable, you can transform these tokens into cash that you can get on ATM. The challenges are there, but the opportunities are even bigger. I think for many, part of the challenges also we found is that many of these organizations tend to be working in silos. It is one of the reasons why we step into the space as well to see how can we actually see what is happening, what are the opportunities It's there to see when the organization come together. But coming to the research, and I will stop shortly, I think the main challenge is always going to be data.

[00:27:41.760] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Where do you get the data? How do you curate the data? As of now, there's not a lot of quantitative data available out there. That would be something really hard for, really. If there's enough resources for researchers or group of researchers to come together and actually track data year in, year out over time across countries. Let's say you have data over 10 years, that can generate a huge deal of insights.

[00:28:10.920] - Clark

Do you have anything to add?

[00:28:12.870] - Wunmi Ogunde

I think it's just even speaking on those things because here's everything well-articulated. One of the things I'll talk about is talking about where you have actors or stakeholders working in silos. I'm looking at it more, obviously, from the practical professional side and things because I've worked in the industry, so I actually really understand that being the challenge of the space. One of the things that we keep preaching and trying to say, Look, let us come together. What we've seen is that people within the sector want to do everything. I want to be A, I want to be B, I want to be C. However, what we say is even if you're A, be A, be good at A. If you're B, be good at B. If you're C, be good at C. And then let's come together and be A, B, C. It's almost a no-brainer, but we We do have a lot of challenge in that space and try to get people to be on the same page and look at the bigger picture. And again, on the conversation around data, so important within research. I mentioned earlier, we don't have a lot of literature that talks about what we're doing.

[00:29:15.200] - Wunmi Ogunde

The only way we can write, we can do more, we can talk, we can have policies that would extend beyond what we are currently talking about today is having this back data data, more data has to come, and all of that. And interestingly, that's Actually, because I've worked in this space, that's really what my current PhDs are, but it's actually to develop a viable data exchange framework that would foster the adoption of secular practices in Nigeria at the moment. And we also understand that a lot of African countries are similar. It might be something that we can always, once it's developed, can be adapted to other African countries. Who knows? That might be something that we can all begin to adopt and seeing how we can then still come together, bring the aggregate data that can allow us to do good work.

[00:30:03.640] - Clark

Okay, I want to ask a question about waste pickers. This is actually in reference to a previous episode we did where we had a case study on Indonesia, and also another one actually where we talked about Thailand and Malaysia. But I learned that one of the main challenges that waste pickers face is that they're not formally recognized. This, in fact, is actually multiple challenges at once that involves not having a minimum wage, being exposed to various occupational hazards, not having access to benefits, the list goes on. I'm imagining that the waste pickers across the regions that we're discussing today are faced with similar challenges. But I'm also thinking that if we have all these thousands of waste pickers across the African continent that have now been equipped with digital technologies, specifically designed to connect them with people in the sector, that could, I would imagine, be an avenue for them to potentially organize and advocate for their rights. I'm wondering if we've seen that happen or if that's the direction you think this could go I think that is one of the things that is going to be the offshoot of this technology.

[00:31:06.520] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Once you give people feasibility and dignity, economic feasibility and dignity, I think the opportunity is are, in my view, limitless because they can then organize themselves and advocate to get more. In fact, they could organize themselves to not just be at that initial lower end of the value chain, but also to collectively organize to be not only waste speakers, but also those who are also transforming waste as a unit.

[00:31:36.350] - Clark

I think one of the benefits of looking at sustainability in context is that we can learn from each other. I want to ask, what do you hope that the rest of the world would learn from what you've seen being done across the African continent?

[00:31:51.230] - Dr. Seun Kolade

I think part of the advantage for the African continent, and we've seen it in mobile technology as well, where you're not locked into the old system or antiquated or dirty system of production to launch or to adopt new technology, the barrier is not as high because you don't have sunk investment, you don't have the economy that is locked in into the old ways. That is an opportunity. I think the message to the rest of the world is that the African continent can show actually the economic as well as environmental merit of cleaner technologies. They are positioned well to do that because they are not logged into these old ways. I think that will show the rest of the world that these cleaner technologies work well, not only as an environmental imperative, but also as an economic imperative as well.

[00:32:48.670] - Clark

Wunmi, same question to you.

[00:32:51.150] - Wunmi Ogunde

I think what I'll just add to that is what I would obviously want people to know is that everything that is a challenge is an opportunity. I think That's the first thing. Africa being the next frontier, that's literally where everything is. If you have a new technology, you can test it. If you have a new idea, you can test it. It has that such viable grounds to develop new things and ideas. I think that would definitely be something that I would look at, and specifically even around plastic, a lot of the new technologies, a lot of the conversations we've had around mobile phones, new technology, AI, and all of these things. These things are happening right now. So we don't need five years or six years or 10 years to catch up. No, they are happening now. So we're also moving in with time. I think the sky is the limit within the country and countries that are in Africa. And maybe finally, Africa is a continent that has amazing entrepreneurs, people with ideas. You're literally stepping into places where people want to work with you to develop ideas. These are very important.

[00:33:58.100] - Clark

Thank you. Well, then the next question is, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you think would be important to touch on before we finish out this conversation?

[00:34:06.960] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Yes. Thank you very much, Wumia. You said it brilliantly well. I think I will just pick up on what Wumia said there. I think the engine of innovation, the engine of growth on the continent is this vast body of ambitious innovative entrepreneurs who are forging ahead in spite of the policy and regulatory environment. But I think the one thing that we haven't talked about is governance, is policy, is regulation. Because at the moment, many of these entrepreneurs are embarking on an appeal battle against the hordes. Imagine what it can do if the policy environment is actually catching up and not injuring this innovative drive. I think that's the one thing, and that's one of the things we want to explore further as we move this research forward also about the governance of circular economy broadly, of circular plastic economy specifically, because where you have government and policy on the same page, things can accelerate even much, much faster. I think that is the hope, that's the expectation, because already you can see these entrepreneurs are dragging policymakers along. But ultimately, you want policies to be at pace so that the energy to drag can just be used to move forward.

[00:35:31.430] - Clark

Okay, well, I'll be very curious to see how that space unfolds. Well, this is the part as we start to wrap up where I ask where listeners can find each of you and follow your work.

[00:35:42.380] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Well, I am on LinkedIn. I'm calling Today is my name on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm also on X for my local Twitter. We don't know what is going on on that platform nowadays. But yes, I'm quite very active on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram as well as Facebook. People You can find me there and I do share some of the work we do. Of course, my website is there, my university profile. As Sheffy Business School, you can find me also on the university web page, Sheffield Alarm University Sheffield Business School.

[00:36:15.160] - Wunmi Ogunde

All right. Thank you so much. I think for me, similarly, I'm quite active on LinkedIn as well. Find me as Wumio Gunde. I try to keep my name all the same. So same thing as Instagram, you can find me with that name as well. Then, of course, my email, which is obviously at the university email. And also probably also a good time to mention anyone who is interested in learning about more in terms of Africa and understanding what is going on. So I have a conference coming up, which is the Pollution Control Conference in September, which I'm the convener of the conference as well. So it just talks into this conversations that we're having. So it's September 26. That is also online on Instagram, which is called Polkorn. So you can also check it out. Yes, again, just pushing on what is going on within the community in Nigeria and the African continent. Thank you so much.

[00:37:02.840] - Clark

Okay. That conference is actually taking place the day after this episode air, so I'll put links in the episode description for anyone who's interested in following that. Also, I'll put links to all the other things that you mentioned as well. This is the part where I say thank you both for coming on the show and for sharing all of this with me and the listeners, and most importantly, for your very important work and research that you're doing in this space.

[00:37:24.900] - Dr. Seun Kolade

Thank you very much, Joseph.

[00:37:26.490] - Wunmi Ogunde

Thank you.

[00:37:36.770] - Clark

You've been listening to Plastic Podcast. You can find more information about this week's guests and links to their work in the episode description. Cover art for the show was done by Laurel Wong, and the music you're listening to was done by Tadeo Cabellos. I am your host, Clark Marchese, and this episode was produced and engineered by me. Plastic Podcast is part of a larger network of sciencey podcasts called Pine Forest Media. You can find more information about us and our other shows in the episode description, as well as on our website at pineforestpods. Com. We're also on Instagram and TikTok at Pine Forest Media, and we've got some exciting sciencey podcast coming out this year. If you think science communication like this is important, one of the best things you can to give this show a one-tap five-star rating across platforms or a written review on Apple Podcasts. All right, I think that's all I have for you today. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll chat soon.