Something in the Water Episode 3: Premium Water from a Pub - Crag Spring Water
Episode Description: In this intriguing episode of "Something in the Water," host Elena Berg interviews Doran Binder, the unexpected water entrepreneur behind Crag, a fine mineral water company in the UK. We delve into Doran's journey from purchasing a failing pub to discovering a precious water source beneath it, leading to the creation of Crag. Focused on sustainability, Crag commits to environmentally friendly practices, using reusable glass bottles and local distribution. Elena and Doran discuss the importance of hydration, the environmental impact of bottled water, and the personal fulfillment of contributing positively to the planet and local community. Join us to uncover the unexpected paths life can take and the profound role water plays in our health and environment.
Episode Guest: Doran Binder
Find more information about Doran Binder here
Follow Doran on Instagram and TikTok
More information about Crag here
More information about the episode and Something in the Water here.
Episode Transcript and more information on the Pine Forest Media Website
Follow Pine Forest Media on Instagram @pineforestmedia
Hosted by Elena Berg
Written and produced by Elena Berg and Clark Marchese
Audio Editing by Clark Marchese
Cover art by Sarah Glavan
Theme Music by Josef Salvat
Transcript:
[00:00:19.250] - Elena Berg
Hello, everyone. It's Elena Berg, your host of something in the water, the podcast where we dive into the world of water, from luxury mineral springs to the challenges of access, environment, and industry for a deeper understanding of what we drink.
[00:00:41.450] - Elena Berg
Today, we're going to open the show with a fun fact. You may already know that we humans are about two thirds water, but did you know that both a jellyfish and a cucumber are 95% water? Which is weird because one of them is squishy and one of them is firm. Actually, it's not so weird when you know how cell walls are put together. But today we're not going to cover cell biology. We're focusing on the water part. We may not have as much as a jellyfish or a cucumber, but we're full of water. Water is the main ingredient in our eyes, our lungs, our brains, our skin. The latest science suggests that our bodies need to take in about three to four liters of water per day, which is about a gallon, some through our food, some through beverages, including water. Generally, this means that we should be drinking at least a liter of water, though this depends on our activity levels and age and how hot it is outside and what other things we're putting into our bodies throughout the day. Perhaps the main reason why we need to drink so much is because we're losing it throughout the day as we sweat and as we breathe.
[00:01:43.160] - Elena Berg
But our body also needs water to absorb the nutrients from the food that we eat, to oil up our joints so we can move around to protect our immune system so we don't get sick and so much more. Last week, we talked about some of the problems that come with bottling water, specifically in plastic. But the last thing I would want people to take away from that episode is to drink less water. In my circles of water sommeliers, there's a lot of talk about drinking water for an experience and for enjoyment. But we also talk a lot about how water is good for our bodies. And we typically distinguish between the water that we drink for enjoyment and the water that we drink purely for hydration. And while we have to be diligent about our consumption of all products in this world, where everything is packaged and energy intensive, et cetera, there are a number of people operating outside of the major corporations that have dedicated their lives to bringing premium water to the public, and I want to introduce some of them to you on this show. Oftentimes, I find that these people didn't grow up dreaming of water or nurturing big dreams of bottling and selling bottled water.
[00:02:47.130] - Elena Berg
Everyone I talk to has a somewhat unexpected origin story. They almost stumbled across it. Our guest for today, Doran Binder, will be the first of several small water farmers that we'll talk to here over the next few episodes. Doran Binder is the owner of a fine mineral water company in the United Kingdom called Crag, which is bottled straight from a spring located under an old pub in the Peak District. I'm focusing on Doran today because of his particular approach to sustainability. All of the water farmers I've talked to are concerned in one way or another about the environmental impact of their business, but their approaches to sustainability differ a lot depending on where they're located and where their clients are. In addition to running this business, Doran's a big advocate on social media for the benefits of proper hydration. We talked about how Craig got started, his efforts to reduce the environmental footprint of his business, and the benefits of drinking natural mineral water. Without further ado, let's get started.
[00:04:05.080] - Elena Berg
Excellent. Recording in progress. Good.
[00:04:09.160] - Doran Binder
Yeah. Cool.
[00:04:11.000] - Elena Berg
Okay, so I want to welcome you here today, Doran. I'm so excited to talk to you a little bit about Crag and about your history and kind of your story, why you got interested in water. So I guess what I wanted to start with is just allow you to introduce yourself.
[00:04:27.500] - Doran Binder
Wow. Okay. So the whole thing is by accident. My whole story is an accident. And I suppose that's the beautiful thing about it. The story for me that started with a divorce, and I had five children with my ex wife and the hardest moment of my life. So I was at a really bad place, and I had to get divorced, and there was a property for sale 900 meters away from where my kids were. And that was the Crag Inn. And the Crag in was a failing country pub. And I'm teetotal because I've never drunk alcohol in my life. I hate pubs with a passion. I find them disgusting, stinky, horrible, dingy places, and I never go to a pub, but this one was 900 meters away. It was failing, and it was near my kids. And I thought, well, it's the nearest property near my children. I could buy it and I could live there. Five bedrooms upstairs. It's in a beautiful spot. And I bought it, and that was my reason for buying it. So my approach was I'll put in a really good POS system, I'll run it for a year, and twelve months later, I'll make a decision of the viability of the business and decide whether I want to continue with it or not.
[00:05:33.110] - Doran Binder
But anyway, six months after I bought it, somebody randomly said to me, you need to get your water tested, because if you got your own water supply and you're a commercial, your property, and you need to make sure the water is safe for public consumption. I said, we'll test it immediately. So he started testing it, and the first thing Richard Taylor ever said to me, he walked through that door and he pointed at me and he went, do you know how good your water is, mate? And I went, no. I said, how's you know, the water is so good? He said, I'm a geologist, I'm a scientist. I've been drinking water for 40 years all over the world. This is the best water I've ever hit by a mile. I went, right, okay. I said, how much water are you talking about? He said, probably about 700,000 liters a day, seven days a week. I went, right. So what happens next? He said, you need to get it accredited and tested. It'll take a year, it'll cost you five grand. And in the end of that, I can prove whether I'm right or wrong.
[00:06:22.290] - Elena Berg
Wow.
[00:06:22.770] - Elena Berg
So I guess fast forward just a few years later and the Crag Inn is no longer a pub, but a thriving water factory.
[00:06:29.380] - Elena Berg
And what struck me, and has struck me again and again with all the people that I've talked to about the small water farm community is that so often it's not coming from a place of a love of water that's central from the very beginning, it's an accident. It's almost like a calling that people find. They trip over it, they discover a spring, and then there's this moment where we realize, oh, my God, this is amazing. This is this incredible opportunity, basically, to engage with this substance that we all need to live and breathe. And then all of the stories kind of come together from there. So we don't start with loving water, we start somewhere else. Water finds us somehow and then kind of livelihoods grow from there.
[00:07:19.140] - Elena Berg
I've heard you talk before about how discovering this water source has inspired you to take your stewardship really seriously. Can you talk a little bit about how Crag operates?
[00:07:29.560] - Doran Binder
At that moment, I decided I had a debt to repay to Mother Nature, which is why crag is in reusable glass bottles only. And that was the beginning of my commitment to the environment and making sure that everything we do as a business puts the environment at the forefront of everything that we do. So the motivation behind reusable glass was to give people an option to buy water in a sustainable way or a more sustainable way than they're currently doing. So in the UK, people who buy bottled water predominantly are buying it in plastic bottles. So our offering was to give people the option to subscribe to our model, which is minimum one crate of twelve bottles every four weeks, delivered to your door. At the same time. We pick up the empty bottles and those bottles are washed and reused, and we wash and we rinse with our own product as well. With crag spring water, it's the only water we have in the building. So all of our washing is done with our products. It's not like we're washing with a chlorinated municipal tap water, and then we're filling it with Crag spring water.
[00:08:34.560] - Doran Binder
No, we wash with Crag, we fill with Crag. So that's why it works. So I would love more companies to get involved with reusing glass. I believe that it's the perfect solution for the UK. I don't understand why it hasn't taken on or single use glass, in my opinion, is the biggest offender on the planet. But yet single use plastic gets all the bad press, and single use glass gets away with murder. And I think it needs calling out and it needs to change.
[00:09:01.240] - Elena Berg
Right. As Malia Elder told us in the last episode, a lot of bad press on plastic comes from the waste end. But production's a big problem as well. Glass can be cleaned and reused, or it can be easily melted down and made into new things. But it does take a lot more energy to produce that single unit of glass than an equivalent unit of plastic. Environmental reporter Pan Demetrakakes finds that producing a glass bottle takes over 17 times the energy of plastic. Malia also told us to be mindful of where our energy sourcing comes from and who our energy emissions affect the most. Energy use goes one step further for glass when you add in the transport costs, because glass is really heavy. All of this is to say that glass is not the perfect alternative to plastic, and it does not solve all of our problems. But where it does earn points is that it can be used safely again and again and again, if we choose to do so.
[00:09:57.770] - Doran Binder
So the idea with crab is that we deliver in crates. All of our customers subscribe to one crate every four week, minimum delivery, because otherwise we don't know where our crates and our bottles are. And we need a minimum 80% return rate to keep it sustainable. And we pull out businesses regularly who greenwash, who engage with crag. They plaster all over social media the green credentials and what they're doing and how clever they are. That they've taken this on and then they don't actually participate in returning bottles, and I pull out of them regularly, so we need 80% return rate to keep it working and to make it sustainable. So that was kind of my way of giving people a sustainable option and hopefully to make a difference in the northwest of England, to get people away from single use glass and single use plastic with a sustainable local water that's employing local people.
[00:10:50.040] - Elena Berg
I appreciate that you're producing water for a local distribution only. So how far do you ship these?
[00:10:56.060] - Doran Binder
So, on a reusable scheme, we're now as far as London, that's collecting bottles, delivering, collecting bottles, delivering. And we have resellers down at the south of England, Southampton, who resell on a reusable scheme, but we have people that want the product, who can't get it because they're not within one of those areas. And so we've opened the doors probably two weeks ago, to single use glass going out here from the UK. Tiny numbers, but it's mainly to get people that have bought into me on social media that want to try the water that can't. Which is another reason why we've launched a can. The can is a much easier way, much lighter way of getting water moved around than glass. So the idea with the can is to open up single use retail that we don't have at the moment with the glass, because it doesn't work in single use retail.
[00:11:51.660] - Elena Berg
This model is really interesting to me. A lot of people listening may never have heard about this kind of scheme for water, but at least in the US, we have a cultural reference of a milkman. Some guy who comes around and delivers a crate of glass milk bottles, and then picks up our empties.
[00:12:16.340] - Milkman
Your milk delivery is the only service that visits every inhabited street, in every suburb, every day.
[00:12:25.060] - Elena Berg
I remember the milkman from when I was a kid, which I guess dates me. I don't think that that system really exists anymore. But the system worked really well because it was local and because glass was all we had. Plastic is really new for us humans, but it also worked because people bought in, they washed the bottles themselves and they put them back on the porch. And I think that local aspect of your company and the partnerships and the relationships that you have with your clients has reinforced the accountability that you have to each other to get that 80% return rate, even though it's a bit of extra work than just buying the plastic or the glass from a bigger player and then just tossing it out.
[00:13:03.570] - Doran Binder
And what's interesting about that, for me, is coming into the industry as a new player. I'm looking at the industry thinking, well, how am I going to compete with Nestle? How am I going to compete with Coca Cola? How am I going to compete with these established market players? Well, for me, it was easy because I knew exactly how I was going to compete by being different, by doing something completely different. So I advise anybody who's looking to do this, be different. Embrace difference. Look for a niche. Don't be scared to be different. Embrace it.
[00:13:33.690] - Elena Berg
Well, that's also kind of cool that the way that you found to be different is also the root of stewardship. And I'm glad to see more and more companies out there filling this niche, of providing more sustainable options to consumers in your area.
[00:13:46.960] - Elena Berg
I think that's part of what your particular voice can do, is bring attention to one place, one set of conditions to rally people around you, to collectively want to do something about things that are broken in your space, and to offer a model where you are at Crag that's different, right. That offers some kind of hope for, oh, this is a more sustainable model. This isn't going to reach rural communities in India, right? Crag isn't going to do that. In fact, that would be counter to the whole idea, right, that we should be drinking relatively local water.
[00:14:24.160] - Elena Berg
Incidentally, next week's guest is Avanti Mehta, who works for a company called Ava in India. And they have a completely different model in a logistical sense, but they have a really similar focus on localized sustainability. Another aspect of your business is education and getting the word out there that water is not just water, both the epicurean side of things and this health side. I've seen some videos where you run down different brands of natural mineral water and talk about them, but also some that focus on how water affects our health. So I'm wondering, what inspires you to focus so heavily on spreading this?
[00:14:59.560] - Doran Binder
You know, when I started my journey, I said, well, where do I go? Where do I go for information? I found Martin and I found Michael. That was it. They were the only two people I could find anything to do with water.
[00:15:10.060] - Elena Berg
Okay, for our listeners, Doran is referring to Michael Masha and Martin Riese. Michael Masha founded the Fine Water Society, and we spoke to him during episode one. Martin Riese is another water sommelier who's very active about water education on social media. You can find him on Instagram at. @ Martin Riese. R-I-E-S-E. Martin's been a water nut since he was a little boy. Growing up in Germany, which is a country with many wonderful mineral waters, Martin is absolutely everywhere in the water world. So please check him out.
[00:15:43.060] - Doran Binder
And that's when I thought, okay, so now, my job, my obligation, my duty, my calling, my reason is to raise the awareness of the most important liquid on the planet to human beings. And that's it. It's that simple.
[00:15:54.890] - Elena Berg
I know that social media has been quite a tool for you to do all of that. And at this stage, now that you've really grown your social media presence, how's that going, and how did that get started?
[00:16:05.660] - Doran Binder
TikTok's been going well for about a year and a half, but again, I never expected anything, but Facebook just exploded.
[00:16:12.980] - Elena Berg
You said you had 80,000 followers.
[00:16:15.110] - Doran Binder
Now 81,000 on Facebook. Six months ago, I had less than 100.
[00:16:18.990] - Elena Berg
That's amazing. Wow. So this is a really recent spike.
[00:16:22.880] - Doran Binder
Yeah.
[00:16:23.540] - Elena Berg
That's incredible. That's incredible.
[00:16:25.370] - Doran Binder
There are plenty of books out there explaining the benefits, the impact that water has on the body. But yet we don't hear the message from anyone in government, health departments, culture, whatever it is, the message should be clear. We should be drinking minimum two liters of water a day, whether you get that from your food, your diet, your salads, your veg, whatever. But people are completely unaware. Water isn't a beverage. Water is human medicine.
[00:16:54.530] - Elena Berg
So this isn't an episode dedicated to unpacking the health benefits of proper hydration, although that would be interesting. But it's still worth talking a little bit about it. One thing I appreciate about Crag is how it uses social media to talk about this. I am going to play you one of Doren's TikToks. I won't play the whole 4 minutes for you, but he's got a list of 19 benefits, ranging from cognitive function to mobility and even allergies, eyesight and pain management. And yes, you did hear him refer to himself as beardy. You can’t see it on a podcast, but he does have quite a big beard. You can find Dorn on Instagram and TikTok @ bearded water sommelier. We'll put a link in the show notes, too. Also, if you stick around to the end of the credits, I'll play a quick audio of a video where he does a little taste test of four different waters. You do not want to miss it. Trust me.
[00:18:00.260] - Doran Binder
Now I realize at the age of 50, I love creating social media content. Where did that come from?
[00:18:06.100] - Elena Berg
Yeah, I really like the way that life can kind of just shift on you like that, that all of a sudden you're doing things you never thought you'd do before.
[00:18:12.550] - Elena Berg
Okay, Dorn, as we start to wrap up, it seems like Craig has been this really unexpected journey in your life. Course. I wanted to ask if there's anything you're most proud of in the last couple of years as this company has taken.
[00:18:27.030] - Doran Binder
Wow. I don't know. Being able to make a difference environmentally is critical. I want my children to know that some of us did something about it. Some of us took action and gave people options. That makes me really proud to be employing local people who need help, who need a lift or a hand in life. That makes me feel really proud to have created my best work in my life during the worst period of my life. That makes me really proud. Being the biggest reuser of glass in the UK non-dairy, that makes me really proud. And having an impact and making people feel better because they're drinking more water and it's having an impact and they're discovering it for themselves. That makes me really proud.
[00:19:10.620] - Elena Berg
That's a lot. I love it. There's so many.
[00:19:13.830] - Elena Berg
Thank you, Doran, for coming on the show to my lovely listeners. I hope I've shown you through this introduction to the small water farmer, that it's not all Aquafina and Dasani out there, and not just miles of single use plastic pumped out by the big multinational conglomerates. There are real people who love water, who are trying to find ways to get the word out.
[00:19:52.590] - Elena Berg
Thank you for listening to the third episode of something in the water. Please join us back here, wherever you're listening to this for our next episode, where we'll continue on our case study journey. We'll talk to Avanti Mehta from a small water farm in India. We'll discuss why some of the same approaches to sustainability that work in England might not be the solution in other parts of the world, and why I'm your host, Elena Berg. This podcast was produced and written by myself and Clark Marchese. This episode's guest was Doran Binder, and we've put some information about him in our show notes. This is a pine forest media production and full transcripts can be found @pineforestpods.com. The music you're listening to was produced by Joseph Salvat, my friend and future guest on the show. Cover art was made by Sarah Glavin and the show was edited by Clark Marchese. Finally, thank you to the American University of Paris for making this podcast possible. If you feel called, writing a review and giving us a five star rating is the best thing you can do to help us so that we can make more sciency podcasts in the future.
[00:20:57.190] - Elena Berg
This is my first audio endeavor as a water sommelier, but as a scientist, we've got a lot more to cover than just water. All right, for those of you that have made it this far with us, as promised, I have one last audio from Doran's TikTok. Enjoy and drink up.
[00:21:15.910] - Doran Binder
Mother Woo. Let me show you four waters that will blow your mind away because they're all completely different. Stop. Beardy here. People say to me, beardy, don't you. Get bored of water just drinking all that water? Starting with Crag TDS 120. Smooth, creamy, silky, beautiful sensation. Perrier TDs, about 360. Heavy carbonation. Heavy natural carbonation. More minerality. A slightly heavier taste to crag. Picatalan 3052. Naturally carbonated. Comes from Spain. Eight beautiful carbonated water. Wow. Vigoromi, Georgia, 4000 tds. Natural carbon nation, both of those two. But that, I call that the tequila of water. That's like a shot of life. You can feel it. The minerality in that is mind blowing. So, yeah, do you get bored of water? No. We're going to mix it up. We're going to have different waters for different occasions. Water is not boring, my darlings. I promise you that.
