South Pole 7. Antarctic Fiction and Public Perception

In this captivating episode of "South Pole," host Clark Marchese explores the profound impact of Antarctic literature on public perceptions of the icy continent. Joined by Dr. Elizabeth Leane, a scholar who bridges the worlds of science and literature, they delve into how novels, poetry, and other media have historically shaped our understanding of Antarctica. From early gothic influences to modern environmental concerns, discover how fictional depictions influence real-world views and contribute to public engagement with Antarctic issues. Whether discussing the role of fiction in shaping policy or the connection between literature and environmental advocacy, this episode offers a fascinating look at the intersection of culture and science in one of the world's most enigmatic places. Join us for a journey through the frozen narratives that define Antarctica in the public imagination.

Episode Guest: Dr. Elizabeth Leane

More information about Dr. Elizabeth Leane here 

Follow Dr. Elizabeth Leane on X 

Read Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Sameul Taylor Colridge. 

Find the Birthday Boys by Beryl Bainbridge

Find Toward Antarctica by Elizabeth Bradfield

Find Who Goes There? By John W. Campbell Jr. 

Episode Transcript  and more information on the Pine Forest Media Website

Follow Pine Forest Media on Instagram @pineforestmedia

Hosted, produced, written, and edited by Clark Marchese 

Cover art and PFM logo by Laurel Wong. 

Theme music by Nela Ruiz

Transcript:

[00:00:09.220] - Clark

Hello, and welcome to South Pole, the podcast that explores everything Antarctica. I am your host, Clark Marchese, and today we are talking about Antartic fiction, poetry, literary themes, public perception, and also, very briefly, icebergs. It's possible you've read Coleridge's Rive of the Ancient Mariner, but it's almost certain that you've seen at least one clip from frozen Planet narrated by the icon David Attenborough. Antartic media of all kinds is very influential in shaping our perceptions of the continent. I remember seeing March of the Penguins in cinema when I was five years old, and subsequently, I had a Happy Feet birthday party at the local roller rink with Happy Feet plates and Happy Feet cups. I don't know why, but Antartic media just sticks with us. Or maybe it's just me, but I don't think it is, because there's a lot of literature, poetry, novels, documentaries, and stories all about Antarctica, and we're going to talk about them today. Our guest for today is named Dr. Elizabeth Leane, who is close colleagues with Dr. Katie Marx, who is the guest of our very first episode. Together, they co-chair the public engagement with Antarctica Research Action Group at the Scientific Committee for Antarctica Research.

[00:01:29.240] - Clark

We are going to talk a little bit about public engagement as well, but from a different angle. Dr. Leane has degrees in both science and literature. So today we're going to be talking about how people's perceptions of Antarctica are formed, specifically through a literary investigation of Antarctica. Antartic Fiction. We're going to identify themes in Antartic works of poetry and prose. We'll also mention some of the non-fiction pathways of perception formation, and we're going to talk about how perceptions translate into support for Antartic initiatives, and of course, the importance of public engagement. Now, without further ado, let's get started. All right, welcome to the show. First, I'll just have you introduce yourself, and maybe you can tell us a bit about your research.

[00:02:18.750] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Sure. I'm Elizabeth Leane. I go by Ellie. I'm a professor of Antarctica Studies, based at the School of Humanities in the College of Arts, Law and Education at the University of Tasmania. I think people are often surprised as a professor of Atlantic Studies in a School of Humanities, because most people expect people working in the Atlantic area to be in science. I do have a science degree, but most of my qualifications are in the Humanities. I'm mostly interested in human interaction with Antarctica, both now and in the past, and primarily that's from a cultural perspective. I'm interested in what Antarctica means to people. Of course, most people don't go to Antarctica, so what place that they never see actually means to them and how they form that opinion. That summarizes it. It goes back to my training in literary studies. I initially wrote a book called Antarctica in Fiction. Initially, I came at it thinking about how do writers imagine Antarctica. But after I finished that, somehow Antarctica had gotten into my blood and I didn't want to leave it alone. Instead of moving on to a different topic in literary studies, I broadened out my disciplinary interests.

[00:03:25.790] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

I collaborated a lot with people in creative arts, the social sciences and to look at different aspects of human interaction with Antarctica.

[00:03:34.890] - Clark

Okay, perfect. I'm going to ask you, have you ever been to Antarctica?

[00:03:39.380] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yes. I made six trips now, I think it is. The first one was about 20 years ago now in 2004, and the most recent one was in January. The first one back in 2004 was to write that book, Antarctica in Fiction, or really to get a sense of the place that the people I was reading were writing about If you know what I mean. I got that through the Australian Antarctica Division, and I was a writer in residence, essentially. I went down on an icebreaker to East Antarctica to Casey Station and MacRoy Island Station. Then it was ages, though, before I got to go to Antarctica again, because it's not easy to go if you're not a scientist or a tradesperson or somebody who works there. But in 2018, I got to go down with the University of Canterbury, who run a course called the Postgraduate Certificate in Antarctica Studies. At that time, it included a couple of weeks' field work in Antarctica. I was invited to be a guest instructor. I went down with the students and the other instructors to the Rosci region and stayed at Scott base, which is near McMurdo base, the big US base.

[00:04:45.280] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

The other three times have been with operators, tour operators, down to the Atlantic Peninsula, which is where almost all tourism happens. That's my six journeys. All of them by ship, some of them by plane, some of them to Eastern Antarctica, some West Antarctica, some of them with tour operators, some of them with national programs. Antarctica is just one place. It's a place with many different aspects and many different places within that place. I think my experience has helped me to understand that.

[00:05:14.160] - Clark

Okay, it's really cool that you've had that diversity because I imagine a lot of people who specialize in one specific area of scientific research in Antarctica might visit the same place again and again. The interdisciplinary approach that you have has allowed you to experience the continent in a lot of different ways. Now, this This podcast is also a very interdisciplinary space, so I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit because you have degrees in physics as well as literature. Can you tell us how these two fields have complemented each other throughout your career and how you still fold them together?

[00:05:45.090] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yeah, again, people are pretty surprised when I mention that I've got a physics degree and a degree in literary studies because they see them as opposites. But for me, they actually had quite strong similarities, I think. With physics, I was always drawn to the mathematical side of physics. I was never any good at the experimental side or the practical side. I was always messing things up. I love the math, which is all really about understanding patterns. It's literary studies. It's about understanding patterns in language and narrative and representation. For me, They have some similarities. Then when I moved to University of Tasmania, here in Hobart, I became increasingly drawn to Antarctica, partly because Hobart is what they call a gateway city, a city that people pass through on the way to and from Antarctica with lots of connections to Antarctica. But partly, too, because Antarctica was called and is called a continent of science. So I thought, Oh, this could be quite interesting to think about how imaginative writers, what they have to say about a place which is supposedly all about science.

[00:06:48.140] - Clark

Well, that might be the perfect transition to talk about some of your research with fiction. You've looked at a number of different mediums, trying to analyze how Antarctica shows up in novels, in poetry, even a musical. Can you tell me about your work studying how writers imagine Antarctica and perhaps how do writers' perceptions of Antarctica form if they haven't been down there themselves?

[00:07:10.180] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

That's a very good question and one that has exercised me a bit is what impact is actually going to Antarctica have on a writer's response? I haven't really come to the conclusion that going to Antarctica necessarily helps you to write a better novel about it. I have found early examples of people who have gone to Antarctica who've written pretty awful novels and people who've written terrific novels who've never been there, and everything in between. Beryl Bainbridge, a British historical novelist, wrote a book called The Birthday Boys, which is all about Scott's Expedition, and There have been lots of different responses to those early expeditions. In a sense, that's not something that requires you to have gone to Antarctica because you're writing about a particular historical narrative and your own take on that. But there are other forms, I think, perhaps need that personal experience to write from. I think the earliest example I found of someone who's gone to Antarctica who was a professional writer, was an early colonial poet in Australia called Henry Kendall. I think his name was from memory. He had gone down on a whaler as a teenager and then later on in life became a poet.

[00:08:19.030] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

He was there in the 1850s in the Antarctica region, very early, and then written about it in around the 1870s. There's just been hundreds and hundreds of novels set in Antarctica. Most of the people who have written haven't been. But increasingly these days, because there are writers and artists' residencies and then tourism, increasingly now I'm finding that if I pick up a novel, a new novel set in Antarctica, there's at least a 50% chance that person has actually traveled to Antarctica. But it doesn't guarantee a better novel, in my opinion.

[00:08:49.760] - Clark

Would you say that there are some mediums where having been to Antarctica enhances the quality more than others?

[00:08:56.230] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Well, certainly. What I find about poetry is that the quality of published poetry about Antarctica tends to be a lot higher than the quality of novels. There's a lot of genre fictions in Antarctica. It really attracts thriller writers, science fiction writers, horror writers, and some of those are pretty forgettable. I don't know that you need to have gone to it. There are some excellent poetry by people who have gone to Antarctica, but there's some equally good poetry by people who haven't. A good example, I think, of the latter is Samuel Taylor Coldridge’s, Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, which is a very famous poem, certainly one of my favorite poems from 1798. Coleridge hadn't even gone outside of Britain, as far as I know, when he wrote that poem, Set in Antarctica, and got all of his information either from narratives or from one of his teachers who had been on Cook's circle navigation back in the '70s, '70s as a navigator. He wrote this wonderful ballad, long, weird ballad about an old sailor who goes to Antarctica and commits an act of violence, essentially, against an albatross and then is punished forever by a polar spirit that follows him back to low latitude.

[00:10:11.520] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

It's an environmental poem in some sense, and it's one of the most influential on Antarctica literature and all written by someone who's not whose knowledge was completely second-hand. But another counter-example to that is another of my favorite Antarctica poets, and that's a woman called Elizabeth Brandfield, who is a polar tour guide. That's her day job. But she's also a poet, and a very good poet. She's written a couple of collections, one's called 'Toward Antarctica' and one's called 'Approaching Ice', and they're both really terrific. I doubt they could have been written without her having gone to Antarctica. So it really just depends.

[00:10:47.320] - Clark

Okay, we've mentioned some examples of where Antarctica is popular among certain genres, but are there any common themes that emerge across any of these mediums having to do with Antarctica?

[00:10:57.930] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yeah, very much so. For example, Colourages is a Gothic poem, and the Gothic is a really strong theme right up till the present day in Antarctica. Poultry, fiction, film. Films like The Thing, for example, you get a lot of horror films set in Antarctica. So this idea of it being a mysterious, secretive place, a place of buried secrets is very strong. That all ties back to that Gothic idea. Purity is the very strong theme. This is a pure place, a place that shouldn't be polluted. Sometimes that takes an environmental angle. Sometimes it can be quite disturbing. You get a lot of novels around the later 19th century, early 20th century, which all subtextually, at least, about racial purity and Antarctica being a pure white space. That becomes quite an unsettling part of Antartic fiction. That purity theme is really strong. Temporality time is a very strong theme. The idea that the ice freezes things and that time moves differently, that Antarctica can preserve the past in a special way. The diurnal changes that you get, I think, feed into that. The fact that if you're at the South Pole, you have a very long, essentially a year is equivalent to a day with a very long summer and a very long winter, and darkness all of winter and sun all summer.

[00:12:19.760] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

A lot of narratives play around with time. Another one is transformation. The idea that when you go down to Antarctica, you come back a different version in some way. When you think about it, because nobody is born, well, a few people have been born in Antarctica, but no one really grows up there, it's always a tramble narrative of sorts. If it's anything realistic, vaguely realistic, it's a travel narrative of someone going to Antarctica and coming back. Almost always, it's a story of change, and often of positive change, so a story of healing or growth, those sorts of stories. It is a bit of a grab-bake in some senses, but in other senses, if you read enough of it, you can see the same ideas, the same things coming through over and over again.

[00:13:06.850] - Clark

One particular theme that I found interesting when I was reviewing your research was that of extraterrestrial connections. Can you tell me about why the extraterrestrial dimension comes up a lot in Antartic fiction?

[00:13:18.700] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yeah, it does come up a lot. I think there are a lot of good reasons that it comes up a lot. If you go back to thinking about the Pole itself, the South Pole, the first way that was conceptualized was just the celestial pole as a point in the stars, essentially, around which the Cosmos turned, according to the ancient Greeks. And later on, when the idea of a spherical Earth comes into play, the terrestrial poles become the places where that axis around which the Cosmos at that point turned, where that axis meets the surface of the Earth. It's a place where the Cosmos and the Earth meet. Even from that, you get a sense of it being this special, somewhat unearthly place. You get early novels that take advantage of that to produce fantastic voyages and utopian tales. A really early one is a novel by Margaret Cavendish called The Blazing World, which was from the mid 17th century, where Earth is connected to another planet via the North Pole. You get one in the early 19th century called Armata, where Earth is connected to another planet via the South Pole. You get this idea that the poles are these shortcuts to extraterrestrial spaces.

[00:14:32.720] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

There's one cool... There's another cool called Journey to Mars from the late 19th century, in which Martians come to Earth and Earthlings go to Mars via the South Pole. It's there quite early on. But then the really influential stories of extraterrestrials that you get happen in the early 20th century, mostly, and particularly in the 1920s and '30s when whole science fiction, magazine science fiction is becoming a very popular genre. You get these stories about extraterrestrials being found in the Antartic ice, buried often from a long time ago with that temporality idea that they're frozen for a long time, and then they get defrosted and all sorts of chaos ensues. The most famous one is a story by a writer called John W. Campbell Jr. Who goes there, and it's the story that became the thing about an alien that gets defrosted inside a scientific base and then impersonates all of the men one by one, and they can't tell who's an alien and who's a man. There's just loads and loads of other novels after that about aliens of various sorts.

[00:15:32.970] - Clark

Okay, you've piqued my interest. I'm going to look into some of those stories. But now that we've identified some of these themes that come up in fiction, I'm wondering what other ways outside of fiction do these themes translate into actual broad-based public perceptions about Antarctica?

[00:15:47.180] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Often it's said that the most influential Atlantic narratives are non-fiction. So the exploration narratives from the so-called Heroic Age are really influential. So a lot of people, even if they don't know much about Antarctica, will have heard of Scott or Shackleton or similar and will have absorbed their understanding of the place from those narratives. Even if they haven't actually read them, they'll know them just through being in the culture. Other than that, though, I think news media is a very strong influence as it is in many areas. I think nature documentaries are very strong influence on people in the Antarctica context, David Attenborough, Life in the Freezer, March the Penguins. Photography, there's some very famous images of Antarctica that that people often know. So, yeah, the non-fiction, I think, is a really strong influence, but I haven't done a lot of empirical research on that topic. I do know from recent research that I've done in Australia that news media comes up as top where people say they get their information about Antarctica.

[00:16:51.080] - Clark

Now, you conducted a survey trying to gage the general support of the Australian public for Antarctica. How would you categorize categorize it or generally describe people's perceptions or support for Antarctica in Australia?

[00:17:06.120] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yes. That was a survey that we did a couple of years back. It was a national survey of a bit over a thousand people that were chosen randomly from the electoral role. We looked at four different government-funded research projects or research infrastructure projects. We asked people what they thought about them. The four of them were... One was Criil research, research into Criil. One was ice pour research. One was a new icebreaker that was just being built at the time, and one was plans for a concrete runway at one of our stations, which were active at the time, but since then have been abandoned. We're interested in how people or what their overall support was for those projects, and what the support was for each of the projects, and whether that varied a different segment of the population. What we found was that Australians were overall white quite supportive of government-funded research, but that varied quite a lot over those different projects. And cruel research was by far the most popular. Over 90% of our respondents were supportive of cruel research, and I think about 60 of all the respondents were strongly supportive. Then the ice core research and the icebreaker were middling, still strong but lower than the Crile.

[00:18:25.640] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

The runway was the least popular, not surprisingly It was quite controversial, and there was certainly media around it and whether or not it should go ahead and its environmental impact. But nonetheless, it was still supported either strongly or somewhat by about 60% of respondents. The support varied between those four things from 60 to 90%, but very much certainly well over half people supportive of all those projects. Then we found some interesting demographic differences in that overall support. We found that older people were more supportive than younger people That's something that other surveys have found as well, a couple that were conducted in New Zealand. Often, a lot of empirical research shows that older people are more supportive of, more interested in, more aware of practic research. I don't know if that's something that reflects whether people change as they get older or whether people now had some experience back when they were younger, that's made them different from young people today. We'd have to do more research to figure out what that is. The source of news was important. I mentioned that news was identified as the most important source, but it was also really important how people consume their news.

[00:19:40.350] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

We found that people who consumed their news through the national broadcaster or through broadsheet media were more likely to be supportive than people who used other sources like tabloid media or commercial television. How you get your news, that's important. Education level we tested for didn't make any difference, which was a surprise It's a surprise to me. But the biggest factor in whether people supported Antartic science or not was their acceptance of anthropogenic climate change, which perhaps isn't all that surprising.

[00:20:10.890] - Clark

Okay, that's interesting. Do we know if increasing understanding of global climate change and human environmental impact has changed public perceptions of Antarctica or the values we associate with it?

[00:20:22.450] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Yes. I mean, Antarctica, I think it's become a lot more central to people's worldview with anthropogenic of climate change. I mean, people obviously avoid it. There's no one in Antarctica's there, but they think of it as being a long way away at the margins of the world, nothing they really need to worry about or think about. I think what's happened with the Anthropocene, if you like, is that Antarctica has moved to the center of people's consciousness. These days, we see media articles almost every day with some story from Antarctica, normally a fairly depressing story about Emperor Penguin ships that have died or the sea ice hitting a new low and those sorts of things. I think what we're seeing is a new understanding of Antarctica as, on the one hand, a pretty vulnerable place, a place that we can easily mess up, but also a threatening place. So a place that if we do mess it up, a bit like in Colourages this poll, it will come and get us. That's through, of course, things like sea level rise, but also things that perhaps aren't so obvious, like the impact on global ocean currents. I think that has increased the public perception of Antarctica.

[00:21:30.010] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

You see it in the media when one of those really enormous tabular birds breaks off, and a bird the size of Manhattan or whatever you want to call it, carves off an ice shelf, and it hits the headlines in the media. The irony there is that often, though, is that carving is a natural thing, and it's very difficult to tie any one large bird carving to climate change. It happens anyway. But I think it's a metaphor that really strikes people because those huge birds make us realize the enormity of what could happen in Antarctica.

[00:22:04.660] - Clark

We learn almost every episode how connected we are to Antarctica. But since you're someone who works directly in the space of public engagement, I'll ask you if you can speak to why public engagement is so important Well, it comes back to what I said about the increasing importance of Antarctica to the planet, or rather, changes that are happening there to the planet.

[00:22:24.220] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

It's that combined with the fact that it's a place that very few people actually get to or see It's very easy for it to be out of mind unless we put it in people's minds. At recent Atlantic Treaty Consultative meetings and other big international meetings, there's been a lot of emphasis on the need for better public engagement to put it in people's minds so that they're aware of the impact that climate change is having on Antarctica and hence on the planet. That's one reason. I think another reason is geopolitical, that there are geopolitical threats, I guess you could say, to the Antarctica Treaty system, Which is a system that's worked really, really well to govern Antarctica since the late 1950s. But the political situation that we're in right now is very different to the one that was happening in the 1950s. We've got different great power politics happening. The treaty itself has a lot more signatories. It had 12 to begin with. It's now got 56, 29 of which have voting powers, so decision-making power. It's much harder to get that group of countries to agree than it was with the original 12. There's a real need to ensure that Antarctica's governance continues to be effective, that conflicts in other parts of the planet don't impact on Antarctica.

[00:23:38.630] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Again, putting it in people's minds, I think, helps with that, helps them keep their governments to account and so forth. Research that has been done so far, including some of my research, shows that people's awareness of Antarctica isn't terrific. I mean, maybe they hear about it in the media, but their overall knowledge is pretty low. So yes, that's a lot of reasons why I think public engagement is important.

[00:24:07.110] - Clark

We spoke with your colleague, Dr Katie Marks, in our very first episode, and I asked her the same question, but I'll ask you now, too. What is the how of this? How can people start to get involved in a way that supports the reasons that you just stated for why it's important to?

[00:24:22.570] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

I think one of the problems with the Antarctica sector is it tends to be really inward-looking. And there's a sense that if you haven't been to Antarctica, you're not really credible as someone who's interested in it. I think that really has to change. We have to encourage people who haven't gone to Antarctica to take a real interest in it and to see it as a badge of honor, in fact, that they haven't been there, because by not going, then you are protecting it, essentially, both in terms of your carbon footprint and also your local impact on the continent. But yeah, it's actually quite tough to get involved. I think an ideal engagement would be a two-way engagement, where it wasn't a bunch of people sitting there listening to a scientist, but people who knew enough to ask searching questions of policymakers to get involved in debates about how we should be interacting with Antarctica, how we should be protecting it. It's a shift from that deficit model of experts talking to a passive empty public and more to a two-way engaged relationship. We're a long way from that. We're a long way from that, I think.

[00:25:25.080] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

I think at the moment, the best people can do is to be aware of the big important meetings that like the Atlantic Treaty Consultative meetings. They happen every year. Not every country is involved, but there are 56 signatories, and that covers a good chunk of the world's population. People should know whether their country is a signatory to the Atlantic Treaty, whether they have voting powers, what the big issues are, and have it as one of those things that you talk about. But people in the sector need to work at finding ways to involve the general public or non-specialists much more actively. That's one of our challenges.

[00:26:01.080] - Clark

We are going to start to wrap up the episode. One question I like to ask is, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you think is important to mention in a discussion about either perceptions of Antarctica, fiction, or public engagement?

[00:26:14.900] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

It's a huge field. You could say so much about impopular perceptions of Antarctica. I think it's important that people understand it is a continental science, but it's more than that, too. And that the human side of Antarctica, the way in which humans respond to it is really important because humans are the people who make decisions about the place.

[00:26:32.480] - Clark

Perfect. What is your favorite thing about Antarctica?

[00:26:37.190] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Oh, icebergs. Yeah. I mean, so it's boring, but- They're not boring.

[00:26:40.680] - Clark

I mean, I hope not. We have a couple of episodes about them.

[00:26:43.670] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

I just can't get enough of them. I mean, painweeds are cute and all that, and whales are amazing. But I just can't get enough of icebergs. They're all different and they're just incredible. I could just stare at them pretty much forever. That's definitely my favorite thing. That That and the fact that there are no spiders in Antarctica.

[00:27:03.710] - Clark

Okay, I'm definitely a fan of no spiders. Well, then the last question I have for you is, is there any way that listeners can find you or follow your work? I mean, I suppose if you want them to.

[00:27:13.100] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Oh, yes, no, I definitely want them to. It's not much point being an advocate for public engagement with Antarctica and then hiding away. Yeah, so my website at the University of Tasmania. That's at discover. Utas. Edu. Au/elizabeth. Leane Leanewith an E on the end. You could look at me there. I'm on LinkedIn, Elizabeth Leane, and I'm on Twitter or X as Elizabeth_Leane So any of those, just put it in Google and you'll find that. So yeah, keen to hear from your listeners.

[00:27:47.130] - Clark

Perfect. I will make sure to include a link to that in the episode description so people can find you easily there. And lastly, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today. I'm really honored to have gotten the chance to talk to you, and I think your work is very fascinating, and I'm also really honored to be able to share with other people. So thank you so much.

[00:28:05.280] - Dr . Elizabeth Leane

Well, thank you. It's an honor to have been here.

[00:28:17.880] - Clark

Okay, a major thank you to Dr. Elizabeth Leane I will also include some links to some of the works of fiction that we talked about today in case you're interested in some Antartic literature and poetry. Also, if you're curious about the Antartic Treaty, which we were talking about at the end. I'm also curious. If you want to learn more about it, one thing you can do is subscribe to the show, and we will get around to it in one of the following episodes. All right, I think that's all I have for you today. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk soon. You've been listening to South Pole. You can find more information about this week's guest and links to work in the episode description. Cover art for the show was done by Laurel Wong, and the music you're listening to was done by Nila Ruiz. I am your host, Clark Morkaisi, and this episode was produced and engineered by me. So if you found it interesting, send it to someone you know. South Pole is part of a larger network of sciencey podcasts called Pineforest Media. We've got one on plastic, one on drinking water, and a couple of new ones coming out soon.

[00:29:22.050] - Clark

And you can find more information about us in the episode description or on our website at pineforestpods. Com. We are also on Instagram and TikTok at buying Forest Media. If you love the show and you want to support science communication like this, a five-star rating across platforms and a review on Apple Podcasts is one of the best things you can do to help us reach more people and for the entire network to grow. All right, thank you to all of you who have made it this far, and we'll talk soon.